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Topic: stm32f4 vs stm32f7 compatibility (Read 9332 times)
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yo2ldk
Neuling
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Posts: 22
I love SDR & OVI40 !
 
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stm32f4 vs stm32f7 compatibility
« on: 13. September 2017, 15:19:39 »
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Some time ago, reading here and on some pdf's as the two CPU is pin to pin compatible, I think it to change the CPU on mcHF with STM32F767VIT6.
today, a friend on facebook group asking for CPU upgrade, so that impulse coming again and I was already to buy one
To be sure anyway, I look it at pinouts, but seems that is not compatible... to bad.
it is someone who really have F7 series on mcHF ?
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Vy 73,
de yo2ldk - Alex
kn05WH
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yo2ldk
Neuling
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Posts: 22
I love SDR & OVI40 !
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Re:stm32f4 vs stm32f7 compatibility
« Reply #1 on: 13. September 2017, 15:20:24 »
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pinouts pdf to compare
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Vy 73,
de yo2ldk - Alex
kn05WH
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dl8mby
alter Hase
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Posts: 363
Ich liebe dieses Forum!
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Re:stm32f4 vs stm32f7 compatibility
« Reply #3 on: 13. September 2017, 20:18:15 »
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Dear OM YO2LDK,
if you would like the effort, you could design your own LQFP100 pcb adapter.
Top side with the STM32F7XX pin layout and bottom side
with the STM32F4XX pin layout that has to fit the UI pcb
pads.
Will be a bit tricky to solder the adapter bottom side
and the adapter board have to be near of the same
dimension as the LQFP100 case.
This is a challenge but will give you a bost in performance
for the old mchf design.
Andreas will perhaps argue that it's better to wait for the
new I40 pcb design so it's up to you what you prefere to do.
Markus
DL8MBY
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| « Last Edit: 13. September 2017, 20:50:27 by dl8mby » |
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dl8mby
alter Hase
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Posts: 363
Ich liebe dieses Forum!
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Re:stm32f4 vs stm32f7 compatibility
« Reply #5 on: 13. September 2017, 20:49:04 »
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Dear Andreas,
dear Danilo,
just for better understanding.
I was convinced that a stm32f4x binary
could be executed on a stm32f7x controller
so that the same programm will run faster
due to the clock speed increas (216MHz).
Am I wrong?
Markus
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DB4PLE
positron
Urgestein
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Posts: 1278
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Re:stm32f4 vs stm32f7 compatibility
« Reply #7 on: 14. September 2017, 06:46:07 »
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Hi,
the STM32F7 can execute every (non-floating point related) instruction of the STM32F4 and it will yield the same result since both are based on the M4F architecture.
But ut has a "completely" different floating point unit (double precision), different memory architecture, differenct cache architecture, most peripheral cores have been changed (SPI, I2S, SAI, I2C, ... ), it has more instructions not found on the STM32F4.
Hey, wait, the GPIOs handling is identical...
The compatibility the manufacturer claims is based on the fact that the pinout is identical and most (if not all) peripherals are using the same pins. Tool chain is similar, if you are using the STM provided HAL software, your applications using the same peripherals are fairly easy to port, for instance although the I2C in the STM32F7 is implemented differently, we did not have to change single line of UHSDR application code between both processor types. However, I2S/SPI changed so much that we could use the I2S peripheral anymore in the F7 since no longer full duplex capable (which we need) and had to switch to use the SAI peripherals...
So even if you can make a working adapter, it would required "wiring" changes which go beyond the simple pin relocation. And I think it would be simply too much effort. It would be better to redesign the whole UI part, which in fact the OVI40 is the result which much more capable audio architecture (2 independent codecs for audio and iq processing make life so much easier!)
BTW, there is a migration document from STM explaining the "small" differences between STM32F4 and STM32F7. Essentially the "fully compatible" is more marketing than anything else. High degree yes in many areas, but full compatibility is something different from my point of view.
73
Danilo
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dl8mby
alter Hase
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Posts: 363
Ich liebe dieses Forum!
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Re:stm32f4 vs stm32f7 compatibility
« Reply #8 on: 14. September 2017, 06:56:04 »
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Dear Andreas,
according to ST, see link below,
http://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers/stm32f7-series.html?querycriteria=productId=SS1858
Compatibility
Cortex-M7 is backwards compatible with the Cortex-M4 instruction set
STM32F7 series is pin-to-pin compatible with the STM32F4 series*
So in this case I would expect a binary compatibility and that the registers
of a STM32F4 MC are a subset of the STM32F7 MC.
HW features are extendet in the case of F7 but should also include HW
of the F4 family.
Still asking if I am wrong?
Sorry for my tenacity.
Markus
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DB4PLE
positron
Urgestein
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Re:stm32f4 vs stm32f7 compatibility
« Reply #9 on: 14. September 2017, 07:18:22 »
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Hello Markus,
see my lengthy explaination above. What you think compatiblity should mean and how STM defines it clearly differ.
73
Danilo
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dl8mby
alter Hase
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Posts: 363
Ich liebe dieses Forum!
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Re:stm32f4 vs stm32f7 compatibility
« Reply #10 on: 14. September 2017, 07:19:05 »
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Thanks Danilo for clarification.
But the issue is different. The question is if you could run a
mchf old FW compiled for F4 on the same ui board equiped
with a pcb adapter that now mount a F7 mc on the same board.
So if the F7 binary is build using the STM provided HAL software
for the F4 and compiler/linker is configured for F7 the MC should
be able to run the code created by the compiler.
Best way to check this is to creat a smal pcb and mount a F7
onto the old UI board. Costs should be less then 50€ without
taking the time into account to create the pcb.
vy73
Markus.
PS.: By the way I had already mentioned in an old thread,
that from my point of view it will by more forward looking
to mount the MC as well as the both WM8713 chips onto
separate smal pcbs that could be plug onto the new UI
board. The new System will then be more flexible and the
om's that had troubles to solder the smal pitch ic's could
sent the smal pcb via cheap mail to others to help them to
solder them. The minor price increas should be accepted
for better handling.
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DB4PLE
positron
Urgestein
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Posts: 1278
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Re:stm32f4 vs stm32f7 compatibility
« Reply #11 on: 14. September 2017, 07:36:31 »
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Hello Markus,
the answer is absolutely no. Since the peripherals are different (different registers etc) it simply will not work. The instructions will be executed but do not produce the same behavoir, so in the end it does not work. If you don't believe me, read
http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resource/technical/document/application_note/73/76/21/47/ef/d0/4c/16/DM00164538.pdf/files/DM00164538.pdf/jcr:content/translations/en.DM00164538.pdf
page 18 for instance, see which peripherals are different: USB FS, USB HS, I2C, I2S is not full duplex.
If Chris would have used SAI, no I2C, no USB: maybe. Yes, the RTC is backward compatible, hurray. Lots of other peripherals are but not some of the main ones we use.
BTW, the performance of an F4 binary on a F7 is probably not much better than on a F4 until you enable the caches which are F7 specific commands. And you'll need proper cache handling in some places to ensure data consistency.
To be fair, porting from STM32F4 to F7 was fairly painless, most changes are related to the cache handling and the use of different peripherals for audio codec communication and some other architectural changes between mcHF and OVI40.
73
Danilo
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dl8mby
alter Hase
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Posts: 363
Ich liebe dieses Forum!
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Re:stm32f4 vs stm32f7 compatibility
« Reply #12 on: 14. September 2017, 08:32:36 »
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Danilo,
again thanks for clarification.
On the other side I could not understand why ST promote the
pincompatibility and make the effort to be (more or less) pin
compatible when no binary compatibility is given.
So old (automotiv/industrial) projects have to chenge pcb layaout
and in addition firmware, so if someone has to do both there is no
reason for pincompatibility and someone will have to designe
a totaly new device - looks for my very strange.
I will ask some ST people on the comming spc ipc drives in
Nürenberg end of November for the thoughts behind the so
called pin compatibility.
Again Thanks.
Markus
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dl8mby
alter Hase
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Ich liebe dieses Forum!
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Re:stm32f4 vs stm32f7 compatibility
« Reply #13 on: 14. September 2017, 08:42:41 »
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Sorry Danilo,
one final question ;-)
The FW inside the github for the old mchf and the new OV I40 UHSDR
compiles for both of the MC's F4 and F7 according to the switches inside
the Makefile - right?
Means this that the FW code include a huge amount of #defines to brunch
during compil time through the hw specific code?
And I do not speak about the #defines inside the HAL but about the community
code developed by you and others.
Markus
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DF8OE
Administrator
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Posts: 6268
Stellvertr. OVV I40, Jugend / Nachwuchsreferent
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Re:stm32f4 vs stm32f7 compatibility
« Reply #14 on: 14. September 2017, 08:42:45 »
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Markus,
you are thinking and living in a world which wants to keep things - to give things more lifetime.
That is NOT how our system works. You shall buy new, lifetime should be as short as possible - you will be pushed to be a CONSUMER.
It is a very good idea to make it impossible to run same binaries on different controllers even if they are "pin compatible". So manufacturer can push people to better consumption.
Be careful: there is strong difference between that what people (politicians, manufacturers) tell and how they act. And, honestly, sometimes compatibility to "old" things can block development. Regard 640KB issue on old processors which was drawn to Pentiums and do make much trouble - block the future...
Technically it will be much effort to adapt STM32F7 to mcHF. In my eyes it is abvsolutely senseless.
OVI40 will be available in all possible stages: as bare PCBs, as kits, as preassembled (SMD), completely assembled, and completely assembled and adjusted. And there will be available two different housings. That is the problem what was wrong with mcHF. Chris never wanted to distribute his idea in this way. He does not want to do it by himself and he does forbid others to do it. I would not lost one second to put energy in mcHF hardware.
EDIT:
Regarding your question:
Yes. You have to set switches to build a mcHF version and a OVI40 Version. At this stage there are only two swtches (MiniTRX is fully mcHF compatible) - maybe number will increase in future.
vy 73
Andreas
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| « Last Edit: 14. September 2017, 08:46:44 by DF8OE » |
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