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Topic: Antennenrelais bei CW zu träge?? (Read 4692 times)
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dl7pf
Neuling
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Posts: 20
OV DØ4
 
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Antennenrelais bei CW zu träge??
« on: 25. January 2018, 19:41:28 »
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Hallo,
bei meinem mcHF habe ich festgestellt (v0.4, Antennenumschaltung mit Relais), dass bei CW (Keyer Mode IAM B und Delay 100 ms) beim ersten Zeichen der erste Punkt immer fehlt bzw. der Strich etwas verkürzt wird. Beim Tasten eines v höre ich im Mithörton das v, sehe aber auf dem Display eine 4.
Gib es die Möglichkeit das zu korrigieren?
73
Wolf
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S53DZ
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Re:Antennenrelais bei CW zu träge??
« Reply #2 on: 26. January 2018, 06:28:03 »
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Hallo Wolf,
Yes, because the dot length at e.g. CW speed 25 WPM is 50 ms. At CW weighting = 1.
73 Bojan
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| « Last Edit: 26. January 2018, 06:31:14 by S53DZ » |
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df9ts
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Re:Antennenrelais bei CW zu träge??
« Reply #3 on: 26. January 2018, 07:23:28 »
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... the dot length at e.g. CW speed 25 WPM is 50 ms. At CW weighting = 1.
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Hello,
typically relay contact closing time is around 5 ms at best, as we know from QSK experiments. Even if it's a bit worse the first dot would be a bit shorter but still there at 25 wpm, and speeds up to 35wpm should be possible to hear first dot safely (but not nicely).
But Wolf seems to state the first dot missing? Or is this a QRQ disussion?
73
Gerd
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S53DZ
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Re:Antennenrelais bei CW zu träge??
« Reply #4 on: 26. January 2018, 08:16:29 »
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My observation is this:
if the TX delay is set to be at 100 ms, then the first RF signal you get out of mcHF using Iambic B would occur after 100 + 5 ms.
Assuming CW letter S:
At 25 WPM the dot is 50 ms and RF out would be at the beginning of the second dot.
At 35 WPM (QRQ) however, the dot is 35 ms and RF out would be exactly at the end of the second dot.
It is just a comment about why you don't have output of the first dot when you use "long" TX delay. And I assume there is an additional delay aspect of CW machine and generating DSP TX output signal.
73 Bojan
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df9ts
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Re:Antennenrelais bei CW zu träge??
« Reply #5 on: 26. January 2018, 10:02:18 »
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Bojan,
if that is the case: isn't that a bug that needs to be raised at Github?
The concept of delaying CW and still cutting the first dit/dash is new to me...
With delay set the Iambic input should stored and output with delay also, not just discarded.
I currently just have the OVI40 UI board, no RF board - so cannot replicate / test for now, sorry.
Might be interesting for the developers to check how others implement this, e.g. in the Microham USB devicerouter SW (manual to be found on microham site).
Gerd.
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DJ3FV
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Re:Antennenrelais bei CW zu träge??
« Reply #8 on: 26. January 2018, 12:17:01 »
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Wolf,
darf ich denn mal fragen welche Firmware Version du verwendest?
73
Uwe
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| « Last Edit: 26. January 2018, 12:22:55 by DJ3FV » |
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df9ts
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Re:Antennenrelais bei CW zu träge??
« Reply #9 on: 26. January 2018, 12:32:07 »
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Referring to Github Issue 1011 https://github.com/df8oe/UHSDR/issues/1011
In issue 1011 DB4PLE commented on Aug 21, 2017:
[...] we had about 23ms delay going from RX to TX in CW with straight key. There may be additional delay before we start processing the first character since we have to wait for the main UI to decide to go to TX. This delay depends a) interrupt load (filtering & DSP use) and the waterfall / scope settings. Please disable waterfall or scope ("increasing" speed to 0 will disable scope or waterfall) and test if this provides improvements. [...]
From CW operator perspective (I only do CW):
- To set the relay hold time "semi break-in" long is not an option. Good CW QSOs are interactive and not monologues
- Waterfall and Spectrum are not used / usefull during CW QSO. Would be great to have waterfall & spectrum stop automatically (for a configurable time?) every time I touch paddle or straight key
- Delay between touching the paddle / key and the actual sending of dit/dashes is no problem, as the sidetone is real-time with paddle/key actions. Any noticeable dela betweeen touching paddle/straight key and the side tone will make CW ops loose their mind.
Possible implementation:
1. When touching straight key / paddle:
1.a High prio interrupt starts side-tone, even if UHSDR still in receive
1.b straight key / paddle input is stored
1.c Waterfall and Spectrum switched off for pre-configurable time (300 ms?)
2. When UHSDR is in TX mode (result of touching paddle / key):
2.a stored CW input (1.b) is sent
2.b any CW input while 2.a is stored, then sent
Comment: This will result in a short delay at end of sending (lag). So be it. Lag upto 100ms absolutely ok (similar lag used for PA PTT even in tight contest QSOs)
Could this be a simple solution to this issue?
Apologies for the text length - CW matters to me a lot. ;-)
BR
Gerd.
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S53DZ
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Re:Antennenrelais bei CW zu träge??
« Reply #11 on: 26. January 2018, 12:52:23 »
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Hi,
I understand the UHSDR implementation of TX delay is such that this is the time between setting PTT line and start of actual RF output. This is to cover for the transition time from RX to TX (relays, PA, trv rx input) to prevent damage of circuits.
To be clear here, I was just trying to explain the pure theory facts about CW timing.
I have no troubles with that since I have my TX delay set at 0 ms and I am using mcHF alone. So, I really have to count only a relay switch time (few ms).
This setting is good for all modes!
But if you have to set TX delay to > 0 ms, then you have to count in possible loss of data in CW and digital modes. I suppose there is no intention or need to introduce any kind of time delay line. And also no need for a new github issue!
These are my thoughts.
73 Bojan
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df9ts
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Re:Antennenrelais bei CW zu träge??
« Reply #13 on: 26. January 2018, 15:20:54 »
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Andreas,
firstly please understand: I am not pushing for a certain feature implementation. Other topics having higher prio - fine.
Let's put the concept discussion at rest until RF board is released, and many current open tasks aore in a better state.
But - please - let's not say this is not an issue.
Just to give you my perspective as an active CW op:
- 25 wpm is a standard CW speed that UHSDR / OVI40 needs to master - no restrictions
- 25 .. 40 wpm ist "faster normal operation", but by no means QRQ.
- 40 wpm and more is QRQ, few people use it, may be not be worth the effort to implement and yes, timing i getting tight.
The 25wpm / 40wpm statements can be verified by a look at RBN (reverse beacon network) raw data.
As to straight key: Needs to work up to 25wpm, better more (remember Bugs / Vibroplex?)
Every good CW op will slow down as needed for a slower OM. But having to slow down because of the rig - no no no ;-)
"Conventional radios" also tend to have this problem BTW. Just a question how much attention the developers puts into this.
Let's have this discussion again when the RF-Boards are released and many other now urgent open tasks are closed?
BR
Gerd
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DF8OE
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Stellvertr. OVV I40, Jugend / Nachwuchsreferent
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Re:Antennenrelais bei CW zu träge??
« Reply #14 on: 26. January 2018, 16:06:23 »
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Hi Gerd,
of course we can discuss later (or now - I think Danilo, Frank and Michael are reading here, too). But again: I do not think that it is solvable without a very, very big restructuring and possible lost of features, which give UHSDR-radios its "high standard level". And maybe it is not solvable, too. MCU has a rated horse power and it can be that we cannot go to TX using the speed you need for >25WPM.
BTW:
For my skill QRQ starts at 25WPM  Of course I know that some are capable of hearing and TXing much faster. But that's "another universe" - for me and for standalone SDR radios with a graphical interface...
If it is an issue or not is dependent from the site of view, too. For a QRQ user of course it is an issue. But if there is no way to get rid of it using the existing chain of IQ-audio-streaming via I2S, digital filtering, digital demodulating, pushing again via I2S to audio codec back - I will not call it an issue. If it is so, it is the "technical edge" of the system in this point...
But I like to hear Danilo and the others, too. Talking we can at every stage. But if that means completely new beginning of firmware programming the question will be: who will do that? And are most users happy with a rig that has no waterfall or scope, no selectable bandwidths, of course no CAT (that is an interrupt, too), of course no DSP (notch, NR, NB), only a 7-segment-LCD for frequency but can go CW in QRQ?
vy 73
Andreas
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| « Last Edit: 26. January 2018, 16:10:48 by DF8OE » |
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