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Diskussions- und Newsboard des DARC-Ortsverbandes I40

allgemeine Kategorie => OVI40 SDR Projekt (English AND German discussions around OVI40 SDR project) => Message started by: G4KCM on 24. January 2018, 11:09:10

Title: Intro & query re H7
Post by: G4KCM on 24. January 2018, 11:09:10

Hello OVI40 group! I have been following for some time and as this is my first post I would like to introduce myself as well as ask a question. (I'm not really sure where to post this so admins feel free to move this post).

I have been an active Radio Amateur radio for many years firstly G8TLE and then G4KCM, unfortunately my career has made me quite inactive for many years but I have recently retired and can enjoy the hobby to the full. I have always been an avid constructor and find it fascinating how technology has moved forward. My original profession was electronics and I consider it an honour to have seen technology move from thermionic valves to LDMOS and from core store (ferrite ring) memory to the amazing microprocessors and gigabyte solid state storage of today all of which I have worked with at various times.

Moving to the MCHF and OVI40. I saw the MCHF emerge and built a version 0.4, I like the concept and followed closely the developments of Chris, Clint and Andreas following now the developments of UHSDR and Git team, Thank you one and all!! I am sure that my MCHF is like many of yours and has gone through many stages of modification! I was therefore delighted to see the OVI40 project emerge from this group as feel the direction being taken is in line with my thinking. I have long been an admirer of the German radio clubs and their group projects. I spent the last five years of my working life in Essen Germany but please excuse my lack of confidence to post in German!

Now to the OVI40, as soon as it became possible I ordered a UI board from Andreas who I must thank for his ongoing efforts and support to the project. The parts have arrived (thank you again Andreas) and I am soon to start construction.

My question. I see from a number of posts people are considering installing an H7 processor rather than the F7. I do have an H7 and would like to install it, from some posts on GitHub I see that that the software is being ported to H7 and I was wondering what the status of this was? I see this as a long term project and am very happy to build with the H7 and wait for the H7 firmware build release. I wonder what others are doing? If the development is likely to be in the long term I will install now the F7 and swap it later with the H7.

Best 73 - Clive, G4KCM

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: DL8EBD on 24. January 2018, 11:22:02

Hi Clive,
welcome aboard from an old Essener guy.... I lived 28 years in Essen and now in Mülheim/Ruhr but still work in the south of Essen (Werden)
Where did you live in Essen?

H7....
I construct two OVi40, hi
one with F7 and another with H7 but I think H7 is the feature with its 400MHz

PS: sorry for my english.... ::)

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: DF8OE on 24. January 2018, 12:46:38

Hi Clive,

nice to hear that parcel has arrived :D

Porting of firmware to H7 is in the last stage. It is already working but needs some work before binaries will be published constantly. I am able to build firmware and bootloader for test purposes - but actually no releases of bleeding edge snapshots. I am sure we will start H7 binaries within the next month.

If you do have a H7 it is a very good idea to fit this instad of F7.

vy 73
Andreas

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: G4KCM on 24. January 2018, 13:03:20

Hi Thomas, thank you for your reply. I used to have an apartment in Ruttenscheid, it was quite close to where I used to work (one of the big energy companies). Not quite so far South but a convenient area for me with lots of nice cake shops!

Yes a second board with the H7 could be an idea, I am though not in a big rush to complete the UI and if it was only a matter of waiting a few weeks for the H7 port of the firmware I would go directly with the H7. I also realise that the people contributing to the development have a life outside of UHSDR!

Best 73, Clive

p.s. your English is fine and far better than my German :)

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: G4KCM on 24. January 2018, 13:14:22

Ahhh thank you Andreas. That’s the pointer I need, I will build with the H7, it’s a long term project for me so I have no problem waiting a while and even if it’s only a ‘test’ version initially that’s fine as well.

Best 73, Clive

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: DL8EBD on 24. January 2018, 13:36:14

Hello Andreas, that are good news with H7.
USB problem solved?

I have a second H7 on stock ready to change it on the other UI ;)

@Clive,
Rüttenscheid... I know it well... and the cake shops too (Café zucca e.g. ;D )
I think you were working at "R*E Tower" ;)

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: df9ts on 24. January 2018, 17:35:28

Welcome Clive.

Thomas,
I got my OVI40 UI board working with H7 yesterday. Put the test load on with ST-Link V2. Works in principle (Display, buttons) - no way to test more since no RF board here.

Was very happy last night that the bring-up was so simple. Biggest obstacle was to solder the ST-Link adapter cable :)

As Andreas said no bootloader or firmware yet so I put the board to rest. Will start assembling the other UI board with F7, same plan as you.

73

Gerd.

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: G4KCM on 24. January 2018, 18:38:36

Quote from: DL8EBD on 24. January 2018, 13:36:14

Bullseye Thomas, though I was in the Huyssanallee office :)

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: G4KCM on 24. January 2018, 18:42:11

Quote from: df9ts on 24. January 2018, 17:35:28

Hi Gerd, did you load the 'normal' binary with ST-Link? I understand the main issues with H7 relate to the USB interfaces. I have ST-Link so could also use that as a loader for initial function tests.

Best 73, Clive

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: df9ts on 24. January 2018, 20:05:53

Clive,

at the moment you will need an ST-Link V2 adapter to connect to the UI boards SWD Debug interface for flashing the UI H7 board. Those adapters are very affordable and useful to have anyway.

As Andreas hinted: mchf (STM32F4), OVI40/F7 and OVI40/H7 will need specific binaries. For mchf and OVI40/F7 you find releases a well as "bleeding edge" daily builds on github. As Andreas said for H7 neither daily builds nor releases exist yet, so BL / FW for H7 not released yet. Many things to do and since the STM32F7 performance is ample the H7 releases are not top of the list priorities.

I used a testbuild just to bring up the board, see my prior post. Consider the test build a proof of concept build to show that H7 works on OVUI40, just needs a bit more work.

I personally feel it's a tad early to use the H7 now - see also Andreas' remark to be patient. That said: if you are into Eclipse and microprocessor programming then now is the time to set up your SW build environment and help on the H7. You will get all the support needed here and on Github.

73 Gerd.

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: G4KCM on 24. January 2018, 21:39:58

Thanks Gerd,

I will be patient and whilst I do have the ST-Link adapter from a previous project I'm in no rush. I started the build today and have installed the H7 which can wait until the software is ported across.

One of my retirement objectives is to resurrect my programming knowledge as it was about thirty years ago that I was writing embedded code for 8051/31 that I used to track satellites. I have more recently been using the Arduino IDE but I suspect Eclipse and and STM is a step too far for me right now. Maybe though in the future, I would like to help.

Best 73, Clive

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: df9ts on 25. January 2018, 08:34:17

Clive,

please check this Wiki page before assemply:
https://www.amateurfunk-sulingen.de/wiki/doku.php?id=en:ovi40build:uiboardbuild (https://www.amateurfunk-sulingen.de/wiki/doku.php?id=en:ovi40build:uiboardbuild)

This is a summary of the forum discussion on building UI V1.8 batch 1.

73

Gerd.

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: G4KCM on 25. January 2018, 09:20:41

Quote from: df9ts on 25. January 2018, 08:34:17

Appreciate the pointer Gerd, I had been following the forum but didn’t realise it had been condensed into the wiki. This is very useful especially for the identification codes.

Best 73, Clive

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: DF8OE on 25. January 2018, 09:30:41

The WIKI shall become the 1st point where newcomers get all needed informations. We (especially Gerd) are working to swap all interesting informations to WIKI and hopefully there will be contribution by doing this. We are looking for contributors who translate the informations to other languages... It is a multilingual WIKI which allows manual translations and is highly appreciated for condensed informations.

vy 73
Andreas

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: G4KCM on 25. January 2018, 09:51:42

I'm happy to help out but I have to say that Google translate does a very good job in translating to the English language which I'm sure is attributable to the good quality German input. The searchable pdf for locating parts on the board is very useful. It surprising how well component locations can sometimes hide themselves :)

It would be good if a layout drawing for v1.8 could be added but I suspect there are only minor differences between v1.7 & 1.8 layout.

If I notice any issues I will correct or report.

73

Clive

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: peter_77 on 25. January 2018, 16:19:43

Interesting would be also where you got the H7 ? Mouser and Digi Key (thats where "normal" people can order) have 30 weeks ! delivery time for the VIT model. >:(

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: G4KCM on 25. January 2018, 16:54:09

Quote from: peter_77 on 25. January 2018, 16:19:43

Interesting would be also where you got the H7 ? Mouser and Digi Key (thats where "normal" people can order) have 30 weeks ! delivery time for the VIT model. >:(

Hi Peter, I bought mine a few weeks ago from Farnell UK. I was buying some other stuff and saw the 144 pin H7 in stock so I bought one. At the time they had around thirty. I have just checked and they now have zero stock with new stock shown arriving 5th March so a bit better than Mouser and Digi-Key.

73

Clive

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: DL8EBD on 25. January 2018, 17:07:14

Peter, Farnell hatte zwischen Weihnachten und Neujahr knapp 100 am Lager.
Hatte ich hier mehrfach bekannt gegeben.... und selber zwei eingekauft.

Die kommen aber wieder, nur Geduld!

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: DD4WH on 25. January 2018, 18:12:41

Hi guys!

Nice to hear that the H7 gains so much interest!

However, I have some problems in understanding why we would need such a fast processor. From my understanding a fast processor always is more power hungry. Our rig is meant to be a portable rig and as such we need a moderate power need. So going for an ever higher processing power (with higher power needs) does not help very much.

One reason to have the H7 -from my view- would be to use the H7 at a much lower CPU speed (<< 400MHz, maybe 100MHz?) in order to be able to save power and have it needing less current than the F7 at the moment. In fact, I am often thinking about using the mcHF UI again, because the F7 needs so much current that my batteries are drained quite fast in RX ;-).

Additionally the firmware for the F7 does have very very few features that the F4 is not able to achieve. And that is mainly because of RAM constraints, not because of CPU speed :-).

So maybe you could explain to me how we could achieve the goal of having a rig with low current needs for RX that has the adequate CPU power when we really need it (for things like noise reduction for example or for Controlled Envelope SSB, if someone is ever going to implement that ;-) --> but again, that only makes sense in QRP, when you want to maximize your clean SSB power output). Surely the F7/H7 are not in that league, because they draw too much current (with about 500mA current drain for OVI40 plus RF board :-( ).

My hope is that the H7 will be able to save current drain and not deliver so much CPU power that no one will ever need. Of course, if we are talking about driving really big screens, it will come into play, but then I do not see the point of having an IQ SDR with a really big screen as my base station --> I would take a direct sampling SDR instead which does not cost much more (well, maybe double the price :-)), but is much better in every respect (and draws a lot of current!).

So, to summarize:

- My wish for the H7 would be a low power implementation of that chip (or at least an option to switch on a low power mode)
- the reason for this is, that I see the mcHF / OVI40 as portable rigs which have the need for low RX current drain

--> no need to go to the field with a polished Ferrari with 400hp / PS, I would like a high technology E-bike with intelligent power management instead :-)

Just my opinion/two cents :-), would love to hear your view of that!

73 Frank

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: DL8EBD on 25. January 2018, 19:01:07

mcHF UI in RX mode with 3,2" TFT full backlight and mcHF RF board : 334mA
OVI40 UI F7 in RX mode with 3,5" TFT full backlight and mcHF RF board: 440mA

Andreas wird mit der OVI40 RF Platine effizientere Spannungsregler einführen
was eine deutlich geringere Stromaufnahme zur Folge hat wie wir ja schon in Dortmund sehen konnten.

Da der H7 der modernere Prozessor ist, ist nicht zu erwarten dass er mehr Strom wie der F7 aufnimmt.

Vielleicht kann Gerd mal die Stromaufnahme seines H7 Boards messen. Ich bin leider noch nicht so weit

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: df9ts on 25. January 2018, 19:50:09

V1.8 UI/H7:
- nur UI Board, kein Rf Board angeschlossen
- mit 3.5" Display
- H7 Testload
- nur +5V angeschlossen

Während der Fehlermeldung (kein Lo gefunden etc.) 250 mA
Wenn der UHSDR Bildschirm mit Spektrum gezeigt wird: 220 mA

Gruß

Gerd.

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: DL8EBD on 25. January 2018, 20:07:25

Danke Gerd!
zum besseren Vergleich hier mal mein F7 unter identischen Bedingungen.

V1.8 UI/F7
- nur UI Board, kein RF Board angeschlossen
- mit 3.5" Display volle Helligkeit
- aktuelle Firmware
- nur +5V angeschlossen

Während der Fehlermeldung (kein Lo gefunden etc.) 280 mA

Fazit:
H7 unter gleichen Bedingungen ca. 10% sparsamer

Und noch eins:

mcHF UI V0.5 / H4
- nur UI Board, kein RF Board angeschlossen
- mit 3.2" Display volle Helligkeit
- aktuelle Firmware
- nur +5V angeschlossen

Während der Fehlermeldung (kein Lo gefunden etc.) 240 mA

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: peter_77 on 26. January 2018, 16:53:13

Quote:

I bought mine a few weeks ago from Farnell UK.

The problem is here that Farnell did NOT sell to "normal" endcustomers !
You need to have a business account there to order, which as a normal endcustomer you do'nt have. And this applies to the German or UK shop.
So Farnell is not an option here for John Average.
Mouser and DK = 30 weeks delivery time :-[
But Frank is right, there is no need for a hurry. So the 3rd board can wait and rest....

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: df9ts on 26. January 2018, 17:28:48

Peter,

can share one H7 (I ordered at Mouser in December) at cost + posting, announced delivery for March 4, 2017.

Original delivery was for Feb 05, postponed to March - so not entirely sure when it arrives.

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: G4KCM on 26. January 2018, 19:05:02

Interesting about Farnell as I have been ordering from them here in the U.K. for many years now without a business account. RS used to be business only but changed and now anyone can order. Indeed RS in the UK seem to now offer free shipping on all orders even for a single item and I tend to use them for most components I need. It’s certainly a lot ‘safer’ than the online auction site!

As for the H7 processors power consumption and to add to the earlier post regarding the measured current drain the ST data says “The STM32H743/753 lines offer the performance of the Cortex-M7 core (with double-precision floating point unit) running up to 400 MHz while reaching 2 times better dynamic power consumption (Run mode) versus the STM32F7 lines.”

73

Clive

Title: Re:Intro & query re H7
Post by: AC9QP on 28. January 2018, 20:00:33

For a low RX consumption version the best bet will probably be using the H7, underclocking it to the same as the F7 and replacing IC6 with a buck converter as the CPU doesn't care about slightly noiser power. Switching the speaker amp with something like the PAM8408 (small Class-D output, runs off 5V bridge mode, only 8mA Iq) would also save a bit of juice.